First I rightfully still do not endorse any Christians adds, anyone, any person, any organization, any Church  now trying to make any money from  the gospel, or begging, asking for money or even  any of the adds here.  I also do not endorse any of  Bibles, books, tapes listed here for sale too. Jesus said as we have freely received so we are freely to give. Hirelings in their greed and visible lack of faith don't do that. I do believe we should have the faith for God to supply what anyone needs  freely to anyone who needs it. 



Even about the Apostles, Prophets and Prophecy in the New Testament? and Today?
 

 
Introduction
 
(Mat 5:11 KJV) "  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.12  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. " History here too repeats itself. This means they still  slander, divorce you, ban, ostracize  you  from the bad churches for stepping on their toes while  preaching the truth ?
 
(Mat 7:3 KJV)  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 
 
 (Mat 7:15 KJV)  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
 
Now we are warned about the specific existence also of the false prophets as well by Jesus for  that means the  true prophets will also always exist? otherwise why are we to make the specific distinctions between the true and false prophets, just like the true and false teachers, true and false pastors, true and false Christians too? I also do know some people can even see Heaven from afar and yet they will also never make it still to heaven. Many are called but few are chosen? Not everyone who calls Jesus Lord will enter Heaven for sure as well as Jesus himself has said above. It is not just how you start the race but also how you finish the race that counts.
 
(Rom 12:1 KJV)  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
 
(Rom 12:2 KJV)  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
I was shocked when I had first discovered and any time afterwards too that many older believers, the  Pastors included believed that turning one's whole life unto God, following after God's will daily, and reading the Bible daily, daily  praying  was an option.. it is not optional for any Christian now as well.
 
(Psa 119:9 KJV)   Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
(Psa 119:11 KJV)  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(Psa 119:12 KJV)  Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
(Psa 119:13 KJV)  With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
(Psa 119:14 KJV)  I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
(Psa 119:15 KJV)  I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
(Psa 119:16 KJV)  I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. 
(Rom 10:17 KJV)  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Psa 63:1 KJV) ..O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;
 
(Dan 6:10 KJV)  Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
 
I was just as shocked here as well to often find out firsthand that too many Christians do nor believe they will reap even here on earth too what they had sowed.
 
(Gal 6:7 KJV)  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
 
(Gal 6:8 KJV)  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
 
(Gal 6:9 KJV)  And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
 
(Gal 6:10 KJV)  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
 
Do also see http://two.fsphost.com/Bible/b/bibleq.htm. http://two.fsphost.com/Bible/b/newl2.htm
 
Me I do not mind openly discussing many of the even supposedly difficult topics in the Bible cause I want to encourage you all to know God's Word better, for you  not only to know it but  to be able to give valid reasons to others for your faith, beliefs. See  HolySpiritCome
  &   Bible  &  http://pbulow.tripod.com/ 
 
And I often still wonder about some of those bad people who try to say I am divisive, unloving, heretical because I am willing to discuss even some of the negative realties of their bad pastor, that  they seem to wrongfully worship as a god now,  I still wonder if  they themselves   they do have firstly,  visibly now too, have  all the  love they demand of me as well?  Blessed only  are all the doers of the word, includes everyone now too. I have learned a long long time ago that when you stand up and preach the truth the devil will immediately try to discredit it, you as well, and will send, use one of his false followers to do it as well. So what? The truth is undeniable still.
 
The question about the existence today of Apostle, Prophets, Prophecy and gifts are very common.. yet still the answers differ so much. And why?
 
(2 Tim 2:15 KJV)  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.17   And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 
It also still amazes me how some people are so ready to claim they are right, even experts, on a subject they have never experienced even, such as the people who do not at all claim now to be a prophet, and/or do not claim they speak in tongues, and/or do not claim they prophecy and yet they next still will try to claim now even to write authoritatively on any of it.....  sure, sure! They firstly all mostly have already lost my respect, and their credibility.
 
I must have at least 200 separate Bible based sermon pages on various places on the Internet that I personally have written and posted,   and I of course I expected some of them to be objectionable to some people, not that I had even next expected many people to read them.. I can also assure you the divisions, denominations in the Christian faith had existed for hundreds of years before I came along and many other men and the devil can take all of the credit for it.
 
Of course I would have expected some of the bad fundamental evangelicals, pastors and their followers especially to bash me  too  personally from my godly writings   like they have been wrongfully abusing most Pentecostals now for years too I get bashed by them too..   I must be stepping on the right toes and thus hitting the mark with many. The Bans are great free publicity for others of my sites and their contents...
 
Let them also now write about what they know, have experienced and wrongfully stop trying to put down,  shut up the people who really do know what they are writing about too. Let them thus also deal with the facts presented here and not try to bash, discredit me personally, a person for sure they do now know personally well enough to do so firsthand too.
 
(Acts 4:16 KJV)  Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.17  But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. 18  And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20  For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. 21  So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
 
(2 Tim 2:15 KJV)  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.17   And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 
But in direct contrast the visible "Babbling" fools or so called  expositors who also do still  try to do an expository of the scriptures based mainly on their own limited personal experiences, mere human limitations and understanding and some of   these persons they are still just mere human fools excusing their wrong doings as mere human frailties and not rather rightfully repenting of them as unacceptable and un repented sins too. 
 
Now let also say that one preaching the Gospel is not an acceptable to anyone personally living it as well, pastors and elders included. And one acting supposedly in love does not exclude one from being truthful too. (Rev 3:19 KJV)  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. (Prov 27:5 KJV)  Open rebuke is better than secret love.   (Prov 27:6 KJV)  Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.  (1 Tim 5:20 KJV)  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Tim 5:21 KJV)  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (1 Tim 5:22 KJV)  Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
 
When I encounter a deviate Church Pastor I normally first ask him of he was specially called directly by God into the ministry and most of them tend to admit they have not.. then I examine his educational Library and I next review, note his  pet library of reference books, favorite authors and note he is clearly  still ignorant of the Bible itself too.

As we have seen with Dan Brown and the Da Vinci affairs, see Jesus ,  some persons falsely still do have a preset personal agenda, in their writing and preaching, pastors and authors now included, and too often it is not the truth they are expounding but their own false even pet theologies still too. Their  most common approach to do this is also to neglect critical related verses in the Bible, to wrongfully totally exclude, ignore them.. most people are too ignorant, too lazy to spot this. Sad. Some people are clearly false or too lazy to study the Bible and the truth they can never know the truth thus too

(Eph 5:11 KJV)  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.12   For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
 
What is true Christian fellowship? It is also the truthful mutual realization amongst the fellow believers that Jesus himself is Lord, not some other man, and he Jesus still is the head of the church, and that we all can have a better life here on earth by prayer, by a proper bible study and by proper biblical teaching.
 
Now I have played local church favorite  for many years and the mostly still pretenders in it had still next offered  very little substance back to me, pastors and elders be cause they did not know too much themselves... so more often  it was mostly the blind leading the blind. Well I can say clearly that is not the case here on this site.. for we have not been afraid to deal with difficult, hard or relevant topics as you can see by the posts and links and topics such as faith in God, healing, gfits, empowerment, poverty, divorce, Da Vinci etc,
 
(Mal 2:1 KJV)  And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you  .2   If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
 
(1 Pet 4:17 KJV)  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 
 
(Luke 19:46 KJV)  Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
 
(Mal 3:8 KJV)  Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.10   Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
 
Malachi was specifically firstly written to the Levites, and they are they ones accused of the wrong doings firstly here too. Jesus began his ministry in the sole Temple too with a whip..

Next firstly also note this recent relgious US southern Baptist editorial about the... 

"Five things that can cripple a church By J. Gerald Harris, Editor Published March 16, 2006

The dear Lord Jesus loves the church and has given Himself for it, and He obviously wants the church to be healthy and vibrant. The devil hates the church and since its inception has been hurling all the weapons in his diabolical arsenal in an effort to cripple its witness and its effectiveness.

Let me mention five of the things that weaken the church and minimize its effectiveness.

First, there is the problem of a scandalous leadership. ( past Liberals included). When immorality bred by lust or greed is found among the leadership of the church the results are devastating. That is precisely why pastors, church staff and lay leaders such as deacons must have lives marked by physical chastity, moral purity and spiritual integrity.

I have pastored a church that was marked by a staff member who was guilty of immorality of the worst sort and the results of his sin had a devastating impact, not only upon him, but also upon his family, friends, the church and even the community. In fact, the church may still bear the stigma of that heinous sin. Someone said that it might take the church a generation to overcome the humiliating and ignominious scars suffered from the grievous sins of one staff member.

Second, there is the problem of a discordant member ( Constituent members) . I am not speaking of the person who registers an occasional disagreement. I am not referring to the person who may infrequently raise a voice of dissent. I am speaking of the person who is born in the objective mood and negative case – the person who is never happy with what happens in the church and actually creates dissention.

In Proverbs 6:16-19 the Bible actually tells us that there are some things that God hates or considers an abomination and one thing God despises is the person who sows seeds of discord among the brethren. Such an individual can make life miserable for the pastor, sandbag decisions in a church business meeting, discourage other church members, repel the lost and summons an ominous cloud over the entire church.

Third, there is the problem of apathy. ( too many Canadian ostriches not dealing wiht the wrongs of others)  Vance Havner said, “We have anarchy in the world, apostasy in the professing church and apathy in the true church.” An indifferent, indolent, lukewarm church nauseates God and renders the church helpless and ineffective.

One pastor went down to the train station every day to see the one westbound passenger train that came through their small town each afternoon at 4:30.

One day the ticket agent, who saw the pastor watch the train pull out of the station each day, asked, “Preacher, why are you always here to see the 4:30 train pull out of the station?”

The weary pastor said, “I just like to see something moving forward that I don’t have to push.”

Did you hear about the company that makes blank bumper stickers? They’re for people who don’t want to get involved. Too many churches have too many people who just don’t want to get involved. Such apathy cripples the cause of Christ and paralyzes the effort to build healthy kingdom churches.

Fourth, there is the problem of inflexibility. ( Stubbornness and Laziness are often the main factor behind this too) Some churches do not grow because the members are so unwilling to change, so unyielding, so set in their ways. I have known Sunday School class members that were so married to their class that they would never agree to serve anywhere else or move to another class or help start another class.

Some classes have their own budget in order to purchase their own chairs, carpet their own classroom and purchase their own television in case they want to watch a certain television preacher instead of have their own teacher teach the lesson. The class is like a country club and for the most part visitors and new members are not welcome unless they are “approved.”

Gordon Venturella says, “Inflexibility leads to idolatry; and change is the only road out of self-centered control to servanthood.” Yet many churches are inflexible – unwilling to change.

Fifth, there is the problem of purposelessness. ( One's wrong goals lead to a larger personal void..) One church put a sign on their church door in 1963 that stated, “Gone out of business. Didn’t know what our business was.”

Thomas Carlyle said, “A man without a purpose is like a ship without a rudder – a waif, a nothing, a no man. Have a purpose in life, and, having it, throw such strength of mind and muscle into your work as God has given you.” The same is true of a church. Proverbs 29:18 emphasizes: “Where there is no vision, the people perish…”

Is your church avoiding the problems that cripple the family of God?" and it looks like ours does...

It might have been unintentional but quite revealing anyway that this above editorial wrongfully too  did not include anything about tithing, money, helping the poor and needy persons., and note this  seems to applies to most of the churches, Baptist, Pentecostal etc.,
 
1: Besides the fact of a clear love  for others and God, the main factor that firstly clearly cripple any church or a christian are lack of personal daily prayer by the pastors, deacons, elders, lay persons. All Pastors should at least pray and read their bibles one hour a day.. and most Christians still do not read or pray 5 minutes of day.
 
2: I know for a fact also that  Robbing God of his tithes, misappropriating them and denying the poor their portion of the tithes devastates any christian or  church as well.
 
(Isa 3:7 KJV)  In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

There is also no question that most Christian churches, people do people abuse the tithes, ( giving to God 10% percent of one's total income) the evangelical churches and pastors included and they do also steal from the tithes by not giving the local poor people in their local church their applicable portion of the tithe. All churches should be doing this good work of giving to the poor people too if they actually practiced the laws of tithing set forth in the Bible.

(Luke 16:1 KJV)  And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.  2   And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Deuteronomy 26:12-15 (NIV) 12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

(Luke 16:9 KJV)  And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. 10   He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11  If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12   And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13   No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Furthermore the Old Testament Levites, and the poor persons who could enjoy  the benefits of the tithes they did not own  or could not own any land, or a house.  The Lord God  stated that the Levites would have no inheritance of land but would be given a portion of the tithe instead. Such an injunction would also apply today to anyone claiming a right to a tithe too.

Numbers 18:20 (NIV) 20 The LORD said to Aaron, "You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.. 

It is also undeniable still that tithing was, is a ministry of social welfare and the only church ministers and poor persons who can, could collect tithes were those who do not own any property or lands personally too.. still applicable today too.  That makes many rich pastors already who own properties and who get tithes immoral thieves.. undeniable too.  Sadly most people realy do not support poor people unless they are poor or till they become poor themselves, walk in their footsteps. The Richer people tend not to help the poor people and that is a fact I have expereinced.  Rich and poor persons tend to be still equal sinners.. All churches should be doing this good work of giving to the poor people too if they actually practiced the laws of tithing set forth in the Bible.   and there is more..

By the way the last 20 years of ministry I have never taken an offering, asked for a donation or asked for any money too for myself. I trust God to supply what I need and how he wants to do it as well.  Do see http://pbulow.tripod.com/richpoor.html  http://pbulow.tripod.com/tithing.html

 

Now Even about the Apostles, Prophets and Prophecy in the New Testament? and Today?

(Eph 4:11 KJV)  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Now  about all of this  historic and ongoing "he gave" isssue  firstly? Are you aware that..
 
Elder as a Church leader occurs 5 times and Elders plural occurs 60 times in the New Testament.
 
The word Shepherd occurs 14 times in the New Testament and this office is not fully detailed as well and the word Shepherds occurs 4 times and it is used in regards to sheep only.
 
In the New Testament Evangelist is mentioned 2 times, and Evangelists is mentioned once and yet many people seem fully known what this office in the Church does entail even   today.
 
The word "Pastor", singular is not found in the New Testament and yet today we have loads of persons ready to swear that the office of the Pastor as is being carried on today, the office/preaching ministry is totally biblical. The word Pastors itself is only found once in the New Testament and it is clearly plural, implying that at least in the church there should be more than one pastor.
 
Apostles and Apostle  are mentioned 60  and 19 times respectively in the New Testament.. and most people wrongfully seem to believe there were only 12 Apostles all together
 
Prophets and Prophets are mentioned 78 and 71 times respectively in the new testament and most people seem to wrongfully think there are no living Prophets today.
 
And few Christian people do still really understand, know from the New testament what these offices really entail, what their respective role, functions now are in the Church today as per the New Testament.

Now coming even to many verses on Prophets or Prophecy in the New Testament why is so many people seem to ignore their existence?

(Rom 12:6 KJV)  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

(1 Cor 12:10 KJV)  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

(1 Cor 13:2 KJV)  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

(1 Tim 4:14 KJV)  Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

(2 Pet 1:19 KJV)  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

(2 Pet 1:20 KJV)  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(2 Pet 1:21 KJV)  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(1 Cor 14:26 KJV)  How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

(1 Cor 14:27 KJV)  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

(1 Cor 14:28 KJV)  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1 Cor 14:29 KJV)  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

(1 Cor 14:30 KJV)  If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

(1 Cor 14:31 KJV)  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

(1 Cor 14:32 KJV)  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

(2 Pet 2:1 KJV)  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And today most people when they think of Prophets today they tend to think that only false Prophets exist today, any present Apostles also do not exist, and they seem to also forget even about the real existence of the false  Pastors, false teachers, false Evangelists now as well.

Now about a New Testament Prophet definition firstly.

I agree that a true "prophet" is someone who speaks the words of God to His people... or to all of the people. . " And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do. So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God...So the Lord said to Moses: See, I have made you as God to Pharoah, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet." (Ex. 4:15; 7:1).

Aaron was Moses’ "prophet". He spoke God's’ words to Pharoah. The Lords’ prophet is someone who speaks the word of the Lord to the people. As we read in Deut. 18:18, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him."

A true prophet, therefore, knows personally that he or she speaks the pure word of God with divine authority.

Wayne A. Grudem who is an associate professor of biblical and systematic theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois. has written two books on the subject of NT prophecy. The first is The Gift of Prophecy in 1 Corinthians, which is his Ph.D. dissertation submitted to Cambridge University in 1978 with slight modifications.  A similar, more popular work, is The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, published in 1988.  J. I. Packer writes on the cover of The Gift of Prophecy in 1 Corinthians, " and so have many other persons written books on this subject now too.  Few people have heard of them never mind read them.

But we all do  still need to know what God, the Bible really says and not what mere man says still on these all of the topics too, Prophets and Prophecy included. We do this by reading the Bible personally, and by personally knowing the Bible  well now too. Not just listening to what others say.,

Grudem also  wrote that "Paul thought of prophecy at Corinth as something different than the prophecy we see, for instance, in Revelation or in many parts of the OT. There, a divine authority of actual words is claimed by or on behalf of the prophets. But the prophecy we find in 1 Corinthians is more like the phenomena we saw in extra-Biblical Jewish literature: it is based on some type of supernatural "revelation," but that revelation only gives it a kind of divine authority of general content. The prophet could err, could misinterpret, and could be questioned or challenged at any point. He had a minor kind of "divine" authority, but it certainly was not absolute.... I am asking those in the cessationist camp to give serious thought to the possibility that prophecy in ordinary New Testament churches was not equal to Scripture in authority, but was simply a very human - and sometimes partially mistaken - report of something the Holy Spirit brought to someone’s mind."

Well that last statement would also clearly apply also to all false prophets firstly... and it adds to the confusions.. and God is a God of order and not confusion. 

 Grudem’s asserts also that in the NT, the counterpart of the OT prophets are the apostles, and not the NT prophets. He states:" ...those who are viewed as divinely authoritative messengers in the NT are most often called not "prophets" but "apostles." Does that make him right?

Supposedly normal and even weird people often still come out with weird word definitions of even supposedly Bible words cause firstly they really do not know God, or the Bible still firsthand. 

But we may have to agree that Old Testament Prophets and New Testament ones did not have the same particular roles or Biblical functions, criteria?

The New Testament office of an Apostle supposedly also had no parallel for sure in the Old Testament ? Not in Moses or in Joshua???

I would agree that a more  valid Biblical definition of an "Apostle is a matured Holy Spirit anointed Christian person who has experienced all the gifts of the Holy Spirit... in other words he the Apostle has also personally had functioned in the role of prophet, pastor, teacher, evangelist, miracle worker, healer, giver, helper.. etc., and that was why they have been given such  importance in their roles now too. Mind you that is a general definition, the original 12 Apostles and Apostle Paul do not fully meet this criteria.

EPHESIANS 2:20 still does reminds us that the church of today as well is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone". Note the inclusion of the New Testament prophets with the apostles as the continual. ongoing foundation of the church. "That these prophets are NT prophets cannot be seriously questioned, especially in the light of Eph. 3:5 where the apostles and prophets again are found together as recipients of the revelation of the mystery that the Spirit has "now" made known." And the gift of prophecy to the church was also to be eagerly sought.

(Eph 4:11 KJV)  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Because they have also wrongfully neglected the continual Greek verse tense here  in the passage, stating thus God keeps on giving these anointed persons, offices, some persons would wrongfully state that there is clear implications there being only one historic  "foundation" and that once a foundation is laid, it does not need to go on being laid thus pointing to a SUPPOSEDLY temporary nature and cessation of the office of Apostle.or Prophet now as well.

The church foundational, original organization plan,  while truly first set in Pentecost is actually repeated  daily today as well when we now do build any new church work. In any new local church work the apostles, and  the NT prophets are continually raised up by still by God for them to serve in the founding, foundations  of the new church work. Once this task was, is complete, these offices of apostles and prophet's were  still needed even next in the administration and expanding the new church work and even by next also building another one, Now how come some people do not want to see this too?

"In Eph. 2:20, apostles and prophets are closely linked. They are both important components of the one foundation.  Ephesians would actually indicate that we are dealing with two groups of specifically gifted people. In Eph. 4:11 we are told that Christ "gave some to be apostles, some prophets..." Here both nouns have their own definite article. They are clearly two separate groups.

Let’s also STILL note the important position accorded to New Testament prophets. In Eph. 4:11 they are mentioned second only to apostles. Their importance is also seen in Rom. 12:6-8, where the first gift mentioned is prophecy. Similarly, 1 Cor. 12:28 lists "first apostles, second prophets, third..." "

The mostly still sinful and rebellious Pastors and teachers  do not like to submit to Apostles, Prophet's even today so that is why they tend  not to like and  wrongfully to agree with this valid exposition now too.

THE EARLY CHURCH VIEW  IN REGARD TO THE PROPHETS AND PROPHECY

Joel 2:28  "...Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." This passage that is quoted by Peter as being fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Confirming  that  New Covenant would also now be inaugurated by a proliferation of prophecy as well.. there is no reason now to also  believe this proliferation of prophecy in the church would be temporary or limited in the earth's time, history now  as well..  (1 Cor 14:39 KJV)  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Not everyone who gives a prophecy in the church now is a "Prophet", now has been set aside by God to function as a Prophet in the local church..  for Paul writes, "But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, and all may be encouraged" (1 Cor. 14: 30, 31).

" We know that following the day of Pentecost, there was a proliferation of prophetic activity in the early church. "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." provides evidence of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. At the same time, the early church has to face the growing problem of false prophecy. "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many," Jesus warns ((Mat 24:11 KJV)  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (Mat 24:12 KJV)  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ). John tells us that this indeed happened, for "many false prophets have gone out into the world," he states ((1 John 4:1 KJV)  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.).

Because of this, the early church too had needed to exercise care and discernment. Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, Apostles Prophets and all prophecies must be tested. Paul exhorts, "Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good" (1 Thess. 5:20, 21). The Corinthian church is told, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge" (1 Cor. 14:29). John adds, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God...every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John 4:1-3).

"As the early church sought to carry out this activity of discernment in evaluating NT prophets, what did they frequently use as their standard of comparison? Let's check out church history. F. David Farnell  chairman of the Department of Ministerial Studies at Southeastern Bible College in Birmingham, Alabama  states, "Thus the early church used Old Testament prophets and past Old Testament prophecies as a test  for the New Testament prophets and the New Testament prophecies?"

"...and the prophecies of the true prophets must still be fulfilled exactly as in the Old Testament" This is precisely what the OT requires if a prophet has the right to claim he is the Lord’s (cf. Deut. 18:20, 22) The true New Testament prophets thus had to have 100% accuracy, just as their Old Testament counterparts?"

 But what does that STILL mean? was IT ALSO applicable  to the test of the prophet or to his prophecy? Now I have heard once genuine prophet give next a false prophesy too. I have even heard, witnessed pastors lie. Does that now also mean every single word a prophet said, or every personal act was to be right, inspired?

Don't you find it really strange that some people today in the church expect all of today's Prophets to be totally perfect, but yet not all of the church Pastors? Why do they have this dual standard? Are they looking for a false excuse to discredit immediately all AND ANY OF the Prophets? It sure really seems so.

Or  why is it that the Old Testament standard for a Prophet's prophecy now as supposedly being applicable to the New testament Prophet  well  clearly not stated or repeated by Jesus Christ or any of the Apostle in the New Testament? Why? We also  do not proceed to stone to death  the false ones as well?

All Prophets and pastors are,  were sinners like everyone else, King Saul also was a prophet and yet he sinned next as well now  for  God uses sinners even for Prophets.

The Bible expositor  who generalizes too much or even those who try to put their own limitations, criteria on terms and definitions will fall now still into major errors too.
 
Some persons would say that today's Prophets cannot be at all like the Old Testament prophets? Or they say that the New testament prophets are not at all like the Old Testament Prophets. This is not all true.
 
After 400 years of prophetic silence (until John the Baptist) a new phenomenon emerged after Pentecost. Now that all believers had access to God through the one Spirit (Ephesians 2:18) we can receive inspiration and revelation from God. We have received the "spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him". (Eph 1:17, 1 Cor 2:9-16). The sheer largesse and abundance of this is almost too much to comprehend. It all starts with Peter's bold interpretation of a prophecy of Joel.

(Acts 2:16-18 NASB) but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: {17} 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT UPON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; {18} EVEN UPON MY BOND SLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.
 
Prophecy would now be abundant. Their sons and daughters (verse 17) and their men-servants and maidservants (verse 18) would prophesy. Prophecy did indeed become common so that when Paul was writing to the church in Corinth  he wrote:
(1 Corinthians 14:29-33 NASB) And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. {30} But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent. {31} For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; {32} and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; {33} for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 
Two or three prophets should speak at one time, and that one at a time and everyone can wait their turn to prophesy.  Paul even tells the Corinthian believers to seek the spiritual gift of prophecy as if it was fairly commonly available, in the process he contrasts it with the gift of tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:1-5 NASB) Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. {2} For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. {3} But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. {4} One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. {5}Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Abundant Prophecy So  'don't despise prophetic utterances' and "hold to what is good, reject what is evil" in regard to NT prophecy. ( 1 Corinthians 14:29, 1 Thessalonians 5:20,21).
 
Now as to the questions..
Are NT and OT prophets the same or totally different?
Are NT prophets adding to Scripture?
Can NT prophets say "Thus said the Lord" too?
If everyone can prophesy are we all then prophets like Isaiah was?
Do NT prophets also predict long-range futures such as the return of the Lord or national destinies?
What is the role of the prophets in a local congregation and is it now really  different from the past forceful prophetic leadership of national Israel?
Some persons do say..
 
In the NT all things are made new - including some items such as prophets and prophecy. The Law and the prophets prophesied clearly until John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11-13).
 
The OT prophet can be now very different figure to the NT prophet  No-one can  come up with a new book of the Bible. No NT prophet as well wrote any Scripture.
 
The NT prophet even uses the Greek word "prophetes" showing a prophetes was an "inspired person".  Inspiration with a small "i" not the big "I" of the inspiration of Scripture.
 
For instance Pythagorus the mathematician was called a "prophet" and Paul calls the Cretan poet Epiminedes a prophet when he quotes him in the first chapter of Titus. (Titus 1:12) . The New Testament word is a very general use of the term prophet.
 
None of the NT prophets wrote Scripture. Not one word of it. (Agabus is reported in Scripture but he didn't write it) All writing of Scripture was done by the original apostles only.
 
The New testament prophets encouraged and exhorted the local congregations, predicted famines and they even tried to keep Apostle Paul in line.
 
While some of the Old and New Testament prophets were given full awe and respect they all  were also still evaluated.
 
 The NT prophet can also be  concerned with appointing national leadership,  or tackling the political reforms of the day.
 
 The NT prophet is also concerned with God's people, even generally and in a local congregation of which they are part and in which they too do operate under submission and review 
 
The NT Congregational Prophet and the effects of prophecy on the unbeliever
 
(1 Corinthians 14:24-25 NASB) But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; {25} the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

The NT prophet too, inspired by God, uncovers the secrets of the unbelievers heart so that some of them, but not all of them, falls on their face in repentance and worship God.
 
The role of the prophet is also to edify the church with words of exhortation and consolation. (1 Corinthians 14:3-4 NASB) But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. {4} One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
 
In contrast to the personal prayer tongues public prophecy ministers to people generally. It is other-centered. It builds up the body of Christ which is why Paul valued it so highly. (Acts 15:32-33 NASB) And Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. {33} And after they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out.
 
NT Prophecy can still also be used to predict the future. Agabus is the best known example for his two prophecies in Acts. Such prophecies of the future seem to be  mainly about a) personal destinies or b) short-term futures only.  (Acts 11:27-28 NASB) Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. {28} And one of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. (Acts 21:10-11 NASB) And as we were staying there for some days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. {11} And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"
 
The New Testament Prophets  also Imparted Spiritual Gifts/ and were involved in Ordination. The prophets were involved with sending out Paul and Barnabas they were involved with imparting a spiritual gift to Timothy. Notice also the plurality of prophets in the Acts reference which is also implied in 1 Timothy.
 
(Acts 13:1-4 NASB) Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. {2} And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." {3} Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. {4} So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus (1 Timothy 4:14 NASB) Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
 
(Numbers 11:25 NASB) Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.
 
(1 Samuel 10:5-7 NASB) "Afterward you will come to the hill of God where the Philistine garrison is; and it shall be as soon as you have come there to the city, that you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and a lyre before them, and they will be prophesying. {6} "Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man. {7} "And it shall be when these signs come to you, do for yourself what the occasion requires; for God is with you.
This informal definition of prophesying seems much closer to what happened in the NT church.
 
Thus congregational prophets are bearers of inspiration from God and form part of the spiritual heart of the new community called the Church. They glorify God in the Spirit and bring conviction, exhortation and consolation. They are the Holy Spirit speaking through Christians to the present needs of the moment.

If someone says "I prophesied, therefore I am a prophet, therefore I am infallible and I can tell you what to do with your life with a "thus said the Lord" then that person is in serious error. Prophetic abuse is common even  today.  The prophet Baal was not the only one who abused his gift.

While all can prophecy, Not all who prophesy are still prophets. Many Christians prophesied but the office of prophet that was next to that of apostle and was a gifted one and a full-time ministry. Paul also says bluntly "not all are prophets" ( 1 Cor 12:28-31) but this seems to imply that the gift of prophecy can be sought by most Christians. (1 Cor 14:1-5) Phillip the evangelist had four virgin daughters who prophesied but they are not called prophets. (Acts 21:9) Women prophesied in Corinthians but were explicitly not to be given authority in the Corinthian church. ( 1 Corinthians 11:3-5, 14:34,35) Women who prophesied in that church were not given the office of prophet in the church still too.
 
NT prophecy too was not infallible but had to be judged by others (1 Cor 14:29) was sometimes a mixture of good and bad (1 Thess 5:21) and was such that it could even be despised -(1 Thess 5:20).
 
NT Prophecy is still also for the building up of the church not for the personal domination of individual believers by any of the "prophets". You still do have a choice and have freedom to disregard even the best prophets as Paul disregarded Agabus and went on to Jerusalem. (Acts 21:10-14)
NT prophecy  was very much grounded in edifying God's people for the immediate task at hand and imparting wisdom and spiritual gifts.
 
Perhaps a bit like Haggai prophesying about the rebuilding of the Temple. Day by day prophecy to get the job done. But we still cannot take the OT national prophet model and impose it fully on the NT congregational prophet.

In the NT God has created His church to be a Spirit-indwelt community that directly receives revelation from Him (1 Cor 2:9-16, 1 John 2:10,27). The receiving of such revelation and passing it on to the community is the role of those who prophesy. All such revelation still needs to be properly discerned and tested.   NT prophecy has more to do with God's will in the present moment and glorifying Him in worship. There are very significant differences between OT prophecy and NT prophecy and we cannot use the OT model as the normative for the NT phenomena. 

Apostle  Paul instructs us all when he says , "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." 

...one can rightfully conclude that 1 Cor. 14:29 indicates that the whole congregation would listen and evaluate what was said by the prophet, forming a personal opinion about it, and some would perhaps discuss it publicly. Any prophet can next be false, and any prophecy given can still have false elements in it  which made all of the prophecies subject to evaluation and questioning at every point. We are not just to test prophecies, we are to test all, all of the speakers now as well, the pastors, teachers, apostles, prophets now as well.,, for there are also even today false shepherds, false pastors, false teachers, false apostles, false prophets now as well..

yes  when a Prophet  claimed to be speaking for God next all of his words of predictions do need to come to pass exactly as prophesied otherwise he may have become false.

(2 Cor 11:13 KJV)  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

"Why does Paul need to instruct the Corinthian church to evaluate/judge/distinguish when it comes to prophecies/prophets? or even to the words of  pastors, elders  now too. From other NT passages it is clear that because of the growing presence of false persons both "from among yourselves" (Acts 20:30), and from abroad, the church must "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1). "

The apostle John doesn’t instruct his children just to test them to even see what part of their prophecy is true and what part is false, but rather to also judge "whether they are of God". But that is true of every person now as well..

(Mat 7:21 KJV)  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You do that not only by how they conduct themselves ("Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" Mt. 7:15, 16.), thus  also by what they say. If they live ungodly lives or if they speak falsely concerning the Bible, the truth or the future, then surely they are "false" prophets, even false pastors, false teachers too.

After all, how much falsehood is allowed before one is considered a false Prophet? a false Pastor? a false Teacher? A false Apostle? No such thing as a little bit pregnant? But let us not be absurd and expect sinless perfection from any Christian person, Christian Pastor, elder, apostle, prophet now as well.

(1 John 1:9 KJV)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There still is a  need for careful judging, then, is not only because of a clear shift from infallible OT prophets to the now  fallible NT prophets, the increase of prophecies  but rather also because of the greater number of NT prophets coupled with the proliferation of false prophets, other false persons such as pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, as  well.

Apostle Paul does write, "But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, and all may be encouraged"  (1 Cor. 14: 30, 31).  so one has to rightfully start to believe that Prophecy as well as Prophets were and are a normal and common  part of the local Church functions.

We still today should not be also surprised relatedly to find New Testament, Church instructions regarding the importance of orderly submission to one another as well in the church  and the importance of us all personally knowing the Bible, as and  helps each one of  us to walk rightfully with and before God.

(1 Pet 5:5 KJV)  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Now as to whether all person also are all workers of miracles?( plural)  or do all have the gift of healings? (Plural too).. and the implication is now are they personally continually producing healing, miracles..

SADLY TO ME THE STILL DEMONICALLY LED CHRISTIANS DO STILL BELIEVE THAT THE MIRACLES OF BIBLE TIMES ARE NO LONGER OCCURRING TODAY OR THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US CLEARLY EVEN BECAUSE OF UNREPENTANT SIN IN THEIR LIFE, AND/OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT MATURED SPIRITUALLY, AND /OR BECAUSE THEY ARE CARNAL CHRISTIANS AND NOT SPIRITUAL ONES.

They may not  deny the Biblical account of the miracles of creation, the flood, the walls of Jericho story, the virgin birth of Christ or his resurrection. To them these Miracles have confirmed the sonship of Jesus. These all are written solely that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. . ." (John 20:31).

But they will next  wrongfully say that  to "look for modern-day miracles outside the Book demonstrates our lack of faith in the Bible and the Son of God it reveals." This is just more of their mere Garbage.. real faith in God believes still in His miracles today as well. For God has not changed, changes not.. nor does, did  Jesus.. (Mal 3:6 KJV)  For I am the LORD, I change not;  (Heb 13:8 KJV)  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 
(Heb 13:9 KJV)  Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 Mind you these same people do believe their own garbage and the fact they are spiritual by telling us such distortions still too. These rather carnal, immature, legalistic, Christian distortionists will sadly also say to you about the 9 MIRACULOUS GIFTS that they are " Like scaffolding, a temporary platform for workmen on a new building, miraculous gifts were temporary to enable the early church time to mature and grow. Instruction had to be given in the absence of a written, confirmed, complete and perfect revelation. These gifts were to last "till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto the full-grown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. . .(Ephesians 4:13). " 
 
Ironically it is also very clear to most of us that we all have not even achieved a unity of faith so these miraculous gift thus are still needed and exist still today too so we can come to a unity of the faith even still.

And the distortionists  they will tend to add that "These gifts came only through the laying on of the apostles' hands." "The apostles had to go to Samaria to lay hands on those Philip had converted and bestow gifts on them, because Philip could not do it (Acts 8:16). Paul laid his hands on twelve men at Ephesus and they spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19:6). The seven deacons, including Philip, received the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 6:6). Paul laid his hands on Timothy to enable him to receive a special gift (2 Timothy 1:6). Finally, Paul longed to go to Rome, "that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established" (Romans 1:11). "

" Only the apostles (  only the Holy Spirit rather still could do this) could give the nine miraculous gifts (1 Cor. 12:4-11). When the apostles died, their hands died with them and the ability to bestow gifts by "the laying on of hands" died also. "  And as to what Apostles are they talking about? Note they will also have to deny that more than 12 Apostles had existed at the time of Christ or that Apostles do exists today as well. Not all of the Christian persons now even spoke in tongues solely by the laying on of the apostle's hands.

These same disrupters and liars forget that there are more ten 12 apostles mentioned in the   New Testament, at least 18, and that Apostles do even exist today as well. 
 
(Rom 1:1 KJV)  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,  (Rom 11:13 KJV)  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (1 Cor 1:1 KJV)  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother...  The very Same apostle Paul said (1 Cor 14:39 KJV)  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (1 Cor 14:40 KJV)  Let all things be done decently and in order.

(1 Cor 14:39 KJV)  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
 
(1 Cor 14:40 KJV)  Let all things be done decently and in order.
 
(Eph 6:18 KJV)  Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (Jude 1:20 KJV)  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,(1 Cor 13:1 KJV)  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 
(1 Cor 12:4 KJV)  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
 
(1 Cor 12:6 KJV)  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
 
(1 Cor 12:28 KJV)  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
 
One if the most understood Christian issues as well is the issue of Tongues? Why? You cannot understand fully something you yet have not experienced for a start.
 
Some persons have said..
 
There are different types of tongues now too.. and not just different types of languages.
 
There is the Evidential tongues the evidence of somebody receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and this   is not the same as the gift of tongues that some people have received even today  as a gift from God where they speak forth in toungues in a church service.
 
In Romans 8:26 there is also the toungues of the  Holy Spirit who is making prayerful intercession for us. (Rom 8:26 KJV)  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  27  And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
 
These are the times of groanings in us through the Holy Spirit that we really cannot  utter. We cannot speak of those things because may be too involved in the groaning part,  or agonizing  over an issue we may not understand or want to face as well. Thus the Holy Spirit then is making the prayerful intercession for us.
 
We are to pray still always to interpret what we pray for in toungues, but we many not always be able to do so still. We then do can understand them to a point if you are Spirit filled to the point that you know for a fact that it's the Holy Spirit praying through you and interceding through you. You know for a fact that you're praying God's will because the Holy Spirit never prays against His own will. We know those things for a fact. We also know according to 1 Corinthians 14:14  Paul says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." So we here too do see that the spirit of the man, the person, the vessel that God chooses to use, that spirit person can cooperate and pray in other tongues. The person praying does not always understand what he's praying for, but based on other Scripture, we know what we're praying for, the will of God to be done. It's perfect prayer if you will.
 
Another type of tongues is  singing tongues , because Paul says that he sings in the spirit and he'll sing with the understanding. They do not need always to be interpreted. Paul doesn't say to interpret those. And we know from  you can worship God in the spirit. When you're worshipping the Lord, and tongues come forth those are worship tongues.

(1 Cor 14:2 KJV)  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
 
So  now we do have evidential tongues, we have prayerful tongues, we have singing tongues, we have worshipful tongues. Then there is the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12. These are all different, but also they are all are related.
 
 Not all toungues  always have to be interpreted. But because God is a God of order, therefore, if you go to a service and all they're doing is babbling for the entire service, that is not always of of God because that doesn't have that  order of the service.
 
The  tongue that must be interpreted is the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12.

1 Corinthians Chapter 12. Paul says, "Now concerning spiritual…" And notice that your Bible has this next word in italics. That means it's not there. This is a word spiritual, it's a word that is an adjective but used as a noun. It would be more perfectly translated spiritual things not spiritual gifts, spiritual things, but the idea that the translators,  wanted to put the word gifts in there and they felt because the entire context was about gifts . Paul he says. "I do not want you to be ignorant." He's talking to the church, because he called them brethren, and he doesn't want them to be ignorant. Now look at the principle that he lays out. Verse 2 he says, "You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols,  And Paul uses the word dumb which has to do with the fact that they just can't speak, they're silent, they're dead. They can't speak. Then he says, "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed." In Contrast theliving God spoeaks to us, and in doing so he wlays uplifts Jesus. the Holy Spirit will not contradict who Jesus Christ is and not curse him, not blaspheme him.
 
And yet some of people who have spoken in tongues have done so, I have heard it myself in a church. There are false people in all churches and false tongues as well as genuine ones.
 
You also can't stand up and say I'm following Peter or I'm following Paul or I'm following Apollos and say that you're doing it because that's God's will. We follow Jesus, Jesus, not anybody else! Because the Holy Spirit would never lead you to follow a man. You can respect part of what a man teaches as long as he's teaching the Word of God, but you're never following a man you're only following the Lord Jesus, and still you can't do that except the Holy Spirit has already regenerated you. 

Some persons also  basically say, "Hey, God uses me in the interpretation of tongues so I'm better than you are." A great deal of false pride came in as they were exercised in the gifts, but here's something to understand, they may have begun in the gifts exercised by the Holy Spirit, but when sin began to creep in like pride, they no longer were being exercised in the gifts of the Spirit, but are beignled by the Devil, because God doesn't lead anyome to exalt themslves. However, in their backsliding God didn't leave them, God didn't forsake them. That's why Paul is still calling some of them brethren. They may be in some sin, but their sin needs to be pointed out, needs to be corrected, needs to be repented of, but they all haven't left God , are an ungodly group, and that they're not even Christians because they don't want to believe still ven in the power of the Holy Spirit and in his giftsd today. Yes too many Christian persons do ntowant to mature inthe holy Ghost, so  they don't want to hear all those spirutal things, gifts.
 
Yes, the Sinful persons in any church they can still be used by the Holy Spirit because they're the choice of the Holy Spirit as a vessel to be used.  (2 Cor 4:7 KJV)  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
 And it has also now bugged the daylights out of me that I knew that some persons in all churches and in all denominations were still sinning very bad, but God still used them as a vessel!  God uses people also in the church who are available vessels, who are vessels that are opened to be used and often those vessels are in sin. God uses also some sinful and even unbelieving pastors cause others had prayed for them to be used by God, their spouses included. God can also use anybody, anything as  well, a jack ass too,  and the usage of the  vessel by the Holy Spirit does not sanction the sin, the persons now still, and as a matter of fact often soon after, there's going to be a visible judgment based on that person's still unrepentant sins and there's even going to be a lot of bewilderment. There's going to be a lot of local, national concerns about why how one could have  be sinful and be even spiritual as well. I have seen this as well. Always still keep your eye on God and his word and not the vessels.
 
God's will also  is for  all persons to know Him initially and continually and firstly  through genuine personal repentance. For  immaturity and unrepentant  sins will keep any believer in  the pigpen instead..  you cannot have one foot in the world, flesh, the devil, hell and the other one next in Heaven, with God.. it cannot be done. That is why so many so called Christian persons are still unspiritual and why they cannot understand the truth or know it. Why we have so many false pastors false teachers, false apostle, false prophets, false evangelists, the  false believers .
 
God does not forever overlook all of the injustice being done or all of the unrepentant personal sins, in fact often there is a time when these persons who have sowed them  do next reap the negative things they sowed, and they are even publicly exposed as being false.
 
Verse in 1 Corhinians 12: 4 says, "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." There are different gifts but it's the same Spirit behind all those gifts. The Holy Spirit in that gift and the Holy Spirit behind that gift is the same Godly Spirit. "There are differences of ministries" but the Holy Spirit is behind the ministry. Even though the ministry is different. Some people are ministering to native Americans, some people are sent to India, some people are sent as missionaries to South America. Yes there are different ministries. Some people are called in the ministry to be aan Apostle, Pastor, teacher, evangelsi as well. There are different ministries, and as a part of the Kingdom activity so that the Kingdom of God is a wide kingdom. Yet the Holy Spirit is behind the ministries when they are of Him. Rightfully and I'm not saying that everybody that has a ministry is really in there in the ministry they're supposed to be, not everyone has been called by God, a prerequissted for beign inthe Ministry too.. 

"And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all." So the activities may be different, but the Father is behind them. So if somebody  is witnessing to the politicans now as well as ministering in the  local church God's behind both of the activities still too. We can't demean or bring down the person that's behind the ministry to the politicans, thos ein Jail, the sick persons, now too or any one else. My ministry is not to God more important than your ministry", for we are all still  members of God.  "Can the hand say to the eye or the foot" that i am better than you, more important thamn you too. God the Holy Spirit is behind it all. I t's of God  omly if the Holy Spirit's behind it it's of God.
 
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:"  the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the manifestation of a specific gift  gift, whether we're talking about the word of wisdom or the gifts of healing or prophecy, any one of those nine gifts of the Holy Spirit listed here, the manifestation of that gift is given to each one for the profit of all. 

Not  everybody has all these gifts all the time. And I want you to understand that not everybody who is Spirit filled is exercised in most of the gifts even, but everybody who is a Christian, who is a believer, who's been washed in the blood can have the gift of the Holy Spirit  and if you  have the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you also will  be seeking the Lord and desiring the best gifts of the Holy Spirit, for one purpose to glorify God, and be a blessing in the church, to be a blessing in the body of believers that we are all a part of and also  involved in the great commission . You can't just minister inside the church and forget outside the church too. And you can't just minister at home. It has to be a blessing to the whole body of Christ.
 
"But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." Now notice that! It is the Holy Spirit who brings forth to the vessel that He has chosen. We cannot manifest these gifts on our own power. That's the sinful flesh! Some persons still do try to do it. We need to wait upon the Holy spirit byy prayer nad Bible study first. It is the Spirit of God that manifests these gifts as He chooses. He works through his choice of vessels. The type of a vessel can be used by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will choose as He will, as He decides, as He has already gone over the people that we are knowing what those needs are. The Holy Spirit manifests the gift that He chooses in the vessel he chooses based on what He believes by His own ability to recognize the needs of the individuals. Sometimes a word of wisdom is needed; therefore He'll manifest it, sometimes the word of knowledge, sometimes the discerning of spirits.

Looking at the gifts of the Holy Spirit many Bible scholars will break them down into three areas. We have the revelational gifts, the power gifts, and the inspirational gifts while some of the false scholars of the Bible will even try to deny that any of them  they do exist today.. we here still too need to look only at what the Bible says firstly. They exist today.
 
And Apostles, one sent forth by God, an Missionary, church builders do still exist today. God continues to give to the Church these gifted men as the Greek tense used indicates too. If the genuine apostles exist today what can we basically expect them to be like? Two common answers to this can include
1.The apostolic ministry ended with the death of John the apostle or at the formation of the New Testament.
2. Apostles exist today they are called missionaries. ("Missionary" comes from the Latin "missio" I send, as "apostle" comes from the Greek "apostelo" to send.)
Whole the original "Twelve" Apostles have passed into history.  They  were the  "The Founders of the Faith". These were the miracle working witnesses to Jesus who knew Him from the days of John until the ascension and were filled with the Spirit at Pentecost. As the eyewitnesses to Jesus ministry their testimony can never be replaced. These are the Twelve, minus Judas, but including Matthias. Paul did not see himself as inferior to the Twelve he never includes himself among them. (Acts 1:21-22 NIV) : "Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, {22} beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." These 12 have a very special place in God's Kingdom (Revelation 21:13-14 NIV) "There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. {14} The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." 
 
The additional Apostles, Founders of the Churches can  include those who are called Apostles, not the original twelve, but play a foundational role in the spread of the gospel. Their task is to go into regions that have not yet heard the gospel and establish the church. They are the Paul's and Silas' - front line pioneer missionaries and establishers of movements of God. These apostles saw the light conflicted with darkness, suffered poverty and persecution, just as many of God's faithful missionary servants do today. We could include the great reformers and re-establishers of the faith in this apostolic category. Men like Martin Luther, John Wesley and George Fox must surely be considered as having more than a persons with  pastoral or teaching gift. Theirs was a God-given authority to plant movements of God. Such apostles are characteristically itinerant with large "territories".  They seem to be unable to stand still too long they see themselves as part of a dynamic move of God. They have a sense of momentum about them that carries both them and others forward. They are opposite in temperament to the steady pastoral types whom they leave in charge of the works they establish. Paul describes some characteristics of this kind of dynamic suffering apostleship: (2 Corinthians 12:10-12 NIV) "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. {11} I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. {12} The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance."

Paul planted, Apollos watered but God caused the growth. Those who establish and deepen their work - Paul and Apollos, Peter and Mark, Luther and Melancthon. Paul seems to have had a dedicated missionary band that followed up on areas he established - Barnabas, Titus, Silas, Timothy and Apollos are among the more prominent names that come to mind. Many of the early bishops fall into this category. They  often appoint pastors and church leaders and train the church in the apostolic teaching (Titus 1:5 NIV) "The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.". Paul instructs Timothy (2 Timothy 2:2 NIV) "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others." Some of these were itinerant but others simply had a fairly large local area (such as Crete or Ephesus) appointed to them. Involved in the  perpetuation of the faith in a recently evangelized area. The movement of God quickly becomes too great for a single human being to oversee.

Those Apostles That Think Apostolically. Apostles that seem to be confined to a local church or under the authority of a more senior apostle. They can be both male and female. Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7), the two anonymous apostles in Scripture (2 Cor 8:18-23), and Epaphroditus (Phil 2:25-30).They have the common gift and office of apostle (Ephesians 4:11-12 NIV) " It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, {12} to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.".  Each gifting has its own way of viewing the church. Evangelists tend to see the church as a rescue station for the lost, pastors tend to see it as a place of growth and nurture . "Is this church walking in the truth? At what points is it departing from the purity of the gospel? What issues of discipline and ethics need to be raised?". Apostles are always concerned with the general health of the local church. Titus was to be received "with fear and trembling" (2 Corinthians 7:14,15) They are honoured brothers and sisters in Christ who serve God faithfully and keep His church healthy and balanced (2 Cor 8:18-24). Many a missionary today has this role. They serve alongside and under a national church where they help to develop leadership and maintain health and balance in the churches they are responsible for. They are honoured brothers and sisters in Christ and faithful servants of God. They are reported as being ill or as suffering for the gospel (Romans 16:7, Phil 2:26,27). They do not seem to abound with the miraculous or have an all conquering faith. They are commended for diligence, faithfulness and sacrifice for the cause of Christ as well as for their outstanding and godly character ( Romans 16:7, 2 Cor 8:18-24, Phil 2:25-30).

The False Apostles. Not all who claim to be Christ's are his, and many who claim, claimed to be apostles were not. How to distinguish between false and true apostles would included their  over- concern with money and comfort which seems always to be a distinguishing feature. Judas is of course the perfect example. False apostles are addicted to Mammon and betray Christ. Paul speaks of false apostles who were setting themselves up rather nicely at the expense of the Corinthian church: (2 Corinthians 11:13-20 NIV) "{13} For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. {14} And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. {15} It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. ....{20} In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.". Such "apostles" do not preach the true gospel but one of their own manufacture tailored to their listeners desires. (2 Corinthians 11:3-5 NIV) "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. {4} For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. {5} But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." The church was to test those claiming to be apostles. The resurrected Jesus commends the Ephesian church for their diligence in this matter (Revelation 2:2 NIV) "I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.".

The False "evangelists" preach "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6-9); false teachers teach doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1-7); false prophets lead people into idolatry(Deut 13:1-3); and false shepherds feed on the flock (Jude 1:12); so false apostles teach false doctrine and plant deceptive and erroneous "movements" contrary to God (2 Cor 11:1-23, Romans 16:18).  False workers share certain common characteristics. They divide and erode the Christian church (Romans 16:17-19). They are among Satan's chief workers (2 Cor 11:13-15). They  Posses a great deal of personal power and a certain charisma (2 Cor 11:5,6). They masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Cor 11:13-15) but when tested lack any real character (Matt 7:15-21, 2 Peter 2:1-3). Often quite successful in their deception. (Matthew 7:22-23 NIV) Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' {23} Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Jesus reinforces this later on the Mount of Olives: (Matthew 24:24 NIV) "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." Paul reiterates this to the tender and persecuted Thessalonian church: (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 NIV) "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, {10} and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.".

Because of the existing of the false leaders. even the false pastors, false teachers, false apostles and false prophets the solution is not to deny totally firstly the apostolic and prophetic giftings but to have our senses trained to discern good from evil.  The problem of false or inferior prophets reared its head even with Moses where Pharaoh's magicians duplicated most of Moses miracles.  Apostle's Paul's exhortation was to godly discernment not fearful reaction (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 NIV) "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; {20} do not treat prophecies with contempt. {21} Test everything. Hold on to the good. {22} Avoid every kind of evil.".

One  test can include  looking  at their ministry in the light of the Word, the Holy Spirit Does the claimant  accept that the only path to power is via the cross? Do they see servanthood as their lot? Or do they exalt themselves and name their ministries after themselves? Do they see godliness as a means of great gain or are they prepared to be content in humble circumstances? How do they react to criticism? A "crucified disciple" is hurt but humble. They all can be judged by their life and character, their fruits, their doctrine, their love and their attitude to the body of Christ. If all these line up with God's word then they from God.

 Some false person shave gone so far as to say that God will slay their critics for speaking against them or that to speak against their ministry is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. These claims are still  the manipulative resorts of false persons. No Christian can ever implies that criticism of his ministry is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus did not claim this of Himself (Matthew 12:32). We all must beware of men who "compare themselves with themselves" commending themselves through the use of worldly status symbols such as wealth, international travel,  doctorates, and titles. Scripture speaks plainly   (2 Corinthians 10:12 NIV) "We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise." We should not be unwise but wise in whom we approve as true leaders (2 Corinthians 10:18 NIV) "For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

The best protection against the false is the abundant exposure to the genuine. So even the  true apostleship should be not be feared but rather nurtured and encouraged along Biblical lines. We often intuitively recognize people of an apostolic gifting. However when we fail to understand the limits and function of the gift we can make unsatisfactory appointments. Apostles need a large area to operate in, they are "big paddock" people. They are more like "ranchers" than "shepherds". The practice of appointing returned missionaries to a small church needs to be reevaluated. If they have had an apostolic role their vision may be too large for the "energy level" of the small church to bear. Mutual frustration can be the sorry result. If we are to properly utilize their giftings they should be circuit preachers, denominational officers or ministers covering a wide area where their enormous energy and vision can be properly channeled.

In the New Testament apostles ranged from the Twelve to the unnamed brothers of 2 Corinthians. They all possess the apostolic gifting and are all called apostles - "ones sent out". They all have a measure of authority given to them by God. Their common characteristic is their intense concern for the health of God's church. But  as true persons abound so do the false. We are not to gullibly follow all who claim great authority in Christ or all who show miraculous powers.

We are to show discernment and wisdom - encouraging the true gifting and rebuking the false. 

Here is some more of the false persons  distortions .."We must keep in mind that there are other measures of the Spirit. One, Christ possessed the Spirit "without measure" (John 3:34). Two, there was the baptismal measure of the Spirit for the apostles and the household of Cornelius (cf. Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10:44-45). Holy Spirit baptism ( and even Healing, Salvation, Demonic deliverance too) was always spoken of in promise and not commanded(????)  (Matthew 3:1; Acts 1:4-5).

Supposedly there is the general measure of the Holy Spirit. I like to call it the kinship measure of the Spirit. This measure is received by every child of God and makes us kin to God (cf. Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor 6:19-20; 3:16-17; Acts 5:32; Eph. 1:13-14)... "
 
still these same baby Christians encouraged by the devil do not want to go on in the Holy Spirit and in the spiritual gifts. They are happy being babes, unspiritual Christians.
 
Still God has desired but now has also commanded all men to be saved,  baptized and fully filled with the Holy Spirit in truth and in reality. 
 
As to the  miraculous gifts that  are named in Paul's letter to the Corinthians. He Paul states: "For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith in the same Spirit; and to another, gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues. . . dividing to each one severally even as he will" (1 Cor. 12:8-11).

THE SAME LIARS WOULD SAY THAT "These gifts relate specifically to the infant church when it did not have the completed revelation of God as we have today. There was a special need then that does not exist now. The gifts were here only to confirm the original word (Hebrews 2:1-4). They helped the church grow and keep out false teachers (Eph. 4:11-15).  The word preached by the apostles was only oral. ( Still they did have the Old Testament in writing) They didn't have yet a New Testament like we have today. It was being written. Therefore, they had these gifts and could bestow them on others to confirm the spoken word. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was con- firmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing witness with them both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will" (Heb. 2:3-4). We supposedly can learn two important lessons: First, the signs, wonders and gifts of the Spirit were manifested through the miraculous gifts. Secondly, for us to look for confirming signs today, exemplifies our lack of faith in the miracles of the apostles and the genuineness of the word of God." 

But do note also that the  opposite is rather too often true, not looking for confirming signs it clearly still can indicate our lack of faith in God to do miracles.. and our having a written New Testament does not stop any person from not believing in God and his miracles even wrongfully.

After discussing the nine miraculous gifts in the 12th chapter of First Corinthians, Paul wanted to point up a "More excellent way" (1 Cor. 12:31), hence he points to the way of love in the 13th chapter. He puts a deadline and dateline on the miraculous gifts by saying, "Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away" (1 Cor. 13:8-9).  but that deadline is when Jesus Christ will come back for us again, for he is the perfect Love..
 
Wayne A. Robinson, Vice President of the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association, gave up his association with Oral Roberts because of the abuse of these Spiritual gifts. So he threw out the baby with the dirty wash water. An abused gifts does not nullify the validity of it's existence.
 
 Now "How about answering the same question that Paul posed to the Corinthians: 'Have all permanent gifts of healing? do all speak continually with tongues?' The implied answer to each question was 'no.'. . . for the same New Testament also clearly teaches that all Christians can have the Holy Spirit, but they do not ... for  they need to be even refilled! Some will even refuse the gifts of God still. Sin, False pride causes them to do this.
 
(Mark 2:1 KJV)  And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2  And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. 3  And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4  And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee... (Mark 2:10 KJV)  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Like someone else has written..

God's still does sends miracles to you today, that is, when you believe! You still do have to do something to get God to act on your behalf OR ON THE BEHALF OF OTHERS..

Remember? "And he [Jesus Christ] did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief," Matthew 13:58.

 The Bible itself is a miracle book, brought about by supernatural means in holy men of God as they were "moved by the Holy Ghost" (II Peter 1:21) ...moved by God, who is SPIRIT... according to John 4:24a. ("Ghost" is "spirit," it is the same Greek word pneuma for both "ghost" or "spirit.")

Too many people have a problem also now just with the existence of Miracles, but with the reality that the Divinely inspired Bible was all brought about by "the power of the Holy Spirit"?! Plenty. So it is not surpassing man y people have problems, or a lack of faith for God to perform miracles their  behalf or on the behalf of others. It's also amazing to me that people have a problem with that when in fact they will believe in things more difficult to believe in than God's Word, like ......Life on mars or aliens.  Just unbelievable! The only "aliens" I know of, as recorded in God's Word, are "devil spirits."

Something really peculiar also is that so many people will believe in "angels," but they do not believe in "the power of the God, Jesus, the holy spirit" ...yet....... both truths, both of these realities, still come from the same Bible.  Isn't that odd  that many only believe certain realities from the same Bible! And why is that?

Further, some people actually think angels are a greater phenomenon than even God's gift to man, named ...the gift of holy spirit, Acts 2:38, and Ephesians 2:8.  Especially, when God had recorded within His Word, the words: holy spirit, spirit, spiritually, holy ghost, etc. hundreds of times more (almost 800 times in God's Word) as compared to the word ..."angels," or "messengers," etc. (used under 300 times).

It is an intriguing matter when men magnify things that God does not magnify, and when God magnifies things that men do not magnify it. Sinful of course.

The Word of God now too often is even sensationalized in preaching, books, tapes for the people's false and shallow belief? People tend to like to hear only certain topics.

and there is clearly  even an evilly devised, satanic-origin to the magnification of angels over God's giving of "the gift of holy spirit," Acts 2:38? Over the word of God too.

Remember? II Corinthians 11:14, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

The greatest "gift" God has also ever given to man is "the gift of God," explained in further detail within the quote, "the gift of holy spirit" ...which Jesus Christ gave his life... for each one of us to personally obtain.

God has also emphasized, magnified His "gift" to man in Jesus Christ over the reality of angels. And  "Know ye not that we shall judge angels," I Corinthians 6:3.

"Internet "Search Engine" compilations, statistics, reveal that people look up the keyword "angels" with a ratio of at least two to one more times than people search or look up the words "spirit" or "holy spirit!"  Even more startling ...is when many are looking up the keyword "angels" more than they are the real keywords of life ..."God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" or "Jesus Christ!" " Why? because many persons really are not interested in personally being spiritual rather they just want  their minds tickled with facts, information."

Many so called Christian, church Internet sites do not even promote Jesus Christ and his finished works for us, but promote wrongfully their organization, man, are a false reason and wrong source for the solicitation of funds too.

"And what is the most important spiritually too, is it God's Word? or having a real personal relationship with him now as well? Is it to really know God through His son, Jesus Christ, by the gift and power of the holy spirit, or is it to learn something else that "tingles" your ears, like ......angels. Nothing wrong with learning more about angels, I am all for it!  But, what is most important in God's eyes?!  A simple truth that might astound you ...is that the power of the holy spirit personally still has greater results,  might than that of God's mighty angels!  Think on that one for a while. This point of truth can be Scripturally documented ...but I want you to see it, to perceive it for yourself within God's Word, so that your believing does not stand in men, but in the wisdom and power of God.  See Matthew 26:53; and Ephesians 1:19 thru 23. "

Now, again as to God's continual miracles to us today as well...

Luke 5:26, "And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear [awe and wonderment], saying, We have seen strange things to day."

A miracle is so astounding to people (that is, when genuine), that when they actually see one .....they regard it as "strange."  But it still does not deny it's existence.

Many at first, they glorify God, but then strange things happen within them. "Strange" in this usage means "incredulity" or skeptical doubt with unbelief creeping in ...it means they can hardly believe in what miraculously occurred even after seeing the miracle! Many they want to believe, but they get "talked" out of it; either by others, or by their own mind. They see it, but they do not believe it. Hence, their remarks, such as... "We have seen strange things today."

Jesus Christ did not do many mighty works where people heard God's Word alone,  only enough to kind of believe, but still not really. He Jesus did hung his "harp upon the willows" in those towns and cities. He left for other places, cities to do his miracles.

If you are going to believe God's Word then believe it every day and everywhere alike, for God's sake and yours! 

Do also see how devil spirit powers endeavor to work in people's minds to talk them out of the majestic power of God via Jesus Christ ...even more so today, yet... Hebrews 13:8 reveals pointedly, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever!" He Jesus can perform the same good works he did while here one earth for each one of us if we come to him still similarly believing.

A Pastor  asked   why it was that in the past when he had prayed for others they had been healed, but now when he prayed for healing for himself nothing seemed to change. It seems to be a paradox between serving a healing God and the persistence of illness and even death which ultimately lies behind many theological debates about divine healing in the Church  which both embraces God the Great Physician and the reality that we continue to live with sin, sickness and death and foremost still God's foremost personal sovereign will.. (2 Cor 12:8 KJV)  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 But we still do not make this exception to Paul's healing request as a general rule.

We  undergird the practice of prayer for physical healing by the  doctrinal emphasis of Christ as still the willing healer.  Isaiah 53:5, "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (KJV).  We need to still to affirm, that all the benefits we accrue as believers come to us only through the saving work of Christ on the cross, whether that be forgiveness of sins, emotional healing, physical healing or victory over temptation. On the other hand, we affirm that we will continue to experience also God's personal sovereign will for us.

All human suffering is ultimately attributed to the sin of the first human pair. With human sin came sickness and ultimately physical death (Gen 3:14-19; Rom 5:12-14 There are obvious cases where someone's personal sin has led to the illness they face--striving for success leading to stress-related illness, excessive alcohol consumption leading to liver damage, sexual promiscuity leading to STD's, etc. and in some cases one can identify someone else's sin as the cause of one's suffering--an injury after being hit by a drunk driver, lung cancer from second hand smoke, etc. But in other cases, there is no immediate link to human sin per se. It is NOT the individual's sin which has caused the illness, but God's will.  (John 11:4 KJV)  When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.(John 9:3 KJV)  Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.Can we still  pray for healing for an illness which we can attribute to sin.  Yes." Jesus death and resurrection effectively reverse all the effects of the fall, and that includes both sin and sickness as the combination of healing and forgiveness in James 5:15 make clear. James 5:15 would also deal with those instances which fit under "sickness as God's punishment for specific sin" which one finds in Acts 13:9-11 and 1 Cor 11:30-32. Should we pray for healing for a sickness attributable to sinful behaviour a person is unwilling to give up? Individual contexts will determine what is or is not an appropriate course of action, but my sentiments would be that one would pray for the sickness as well as for conviction of and victory over the obvious sin causing the illness. 

 Is it Always God's Will to Heal?  "Yes, God's will is for his redeemed humanity to be completely liberated from the effects of the fall, including sickness and death." As Jesus himself instructs in the Lord's prayer, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" and "Your Kingdom come" (Matt 6:10 NIV). I can reassure those seeking divine healing is that they are indeed asking for exactly what it is their loving God wishes to give them. The only question is "When?", The  Role of personal Faith. A most troubling and potentially tricky question is that of the role of faith in divine healing, While the New Testament repeatedly hints there is a connection between faith and experiencing God's divine healing.  This should hardly be surprising given all our benefits accrued on the cross and resurrection become available as we put our faith in Christ and his saving work. The problem lies with those who do chalk up all of the failure to see results from healing prayer to lack of faith, usually on the part of the ill victim. To attempt to "hype up" one's immediate faith so one can experience healing is to rely on personal work, not faith. References to "faith" in the Gospels and Acts are less an issue of amount  as more importantly a correctly oriented faith (i.e., they have chosen to put their trust in Jesus to heal them and not  a man). So long as our attitude is that of the father of the possessed boy who cried, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief," we have met the faith requirement (Mark 9:24). In fact, the very act of asking for prayer for healing demonstrates one has at least the seeds of faith within. 
 
There is another dimension to faith and healing occasionally forgotten, and that is that frequently the "faith demand" is on the part of those praying for healing, rather than the ill person themselves.   James 5:14-15 it is clearly the elders praying to whom the remark about "the prayer offered in faith" applies.  This of course has some practical implications to which we shall now turn.

The New Testament church varied in its approach to healing depending on the context. In Acts we find traveling preachers performing public healings to underscore their message of a saving and healing Savior. In 1 Corinthians, we find that in Paul's charismatic community healing was done by those who believed the Spirit was gifting them to perform a particular healing or healings. In James' more structured context, it is the role of the elders to carry out healing rites. Those who claim that we must get back to "doing it the way the early church did it" must first answer the question, "Which church, where and when?" The Holy Spirit still determine the right approaches and for believers this is generally based on the church elders to do this as per James.
 
Fundamental to all the healing  approaches is that the healing was attributed to the exalted Christ and the presence of a human healing mediator. That is, it is Christ doing the healing, but he mediates that healing through human believers. Christ through the Spirit is in the business of ministering to our needs by using one believer to meet the needs of another. This is not to say that individuals cannot ask for healing directly from God, but that the model given to us in the NT is that Christ's modus operandi is typically to involve someone else in the process of meeting that need.
 
A plurality of elders praying for the healing of the sick person also prevents the dramatic enhancement of any "individual" who is tended next to be wrongfully glorified to be "super-spiritual" because of their having manifested the Spirit through a gift of healing
 
As for the "symbolic" gestures associated with the James 5:13-16 "healing format", that is, the laying on of hands and the anointing oil, these are still very appropriate.  the oil a sign of God's activity in setting the person apart to receive a special blessing from him, and is also a direct identification with the Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit who is carrying out the actual healing.

All  pastors must do a more adequate job of informing their congregation that if they are ill, they have every right to call the elders together to pray for them.even in a  private session with a person which  often far more effective in meeting some of the deficiencies of the mass "altar-call healing service."
 
We can also  allow those persons who have the faith or those who believe they are gifted to pray for a healing to join the local church  elders in prayer for a sick individual. Even  children are often effective in prayer for healing.  I do not believe there a need to abandon James 5 as a primary model, but I also believe there needs to be a openness to the alternative approaches as the Holy Spirit would lead. I have even prayed for individuals  in Hospital alone, in Jesus name and without oil,  and they were still dramatically healed. 

We pray for healing for one another anywhere, in the church because we share Christ's love for one another and his concern that we should be liberated from the devastating effects of our sin, corporately and individually. All  Healing is also medically verifiable.
 
The surest test of our healing ministry is not whether we see all of the paraplegics walk, but whether those who pray for healing and those who are prayed for can understand that we are doing this out of love and care and concern. If those involved in healing ministry within our church walk away from a time of healing ministry profoundly touched by God's love for us and his people's love for one another, I believe one has an effective healing ministry.
 
John Wimber's Technique (From his bookPower Healing) based on spiritual perception.

John Wimber's technique  takes into account factors such as unforgiveness and "the real reason" why people are sick. Such as the "real reason they are sick is because they have a poor relationship with their mother" or "your arthritis is caused by bitterness". This may very well be so because we are creatures of body, soul and spirit

1. The Interview - Where does it hurt? What's wrong?

2. The Diagnostic Decision - What's really wrong? What's the cause of the illness? Ask God to reveal it. Ask questions.

3. The Prayer Selection - How should I pray in this situation? Wimber talks about prayers of petition, command, pronouncement, rebuke and agreement. The prayer of agreement is where you get others to agree with you for the healing and it helps add authority and power to the battle. (Matthew 18:19-20 NKJV) "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. {20} "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

4. The Prayer Engagement - Wimber lays his hands on the person (or, in the case of sensitive areas on top of the person's hands which are placed over the afflicted area). He then prays "Holy Spirit come and minister healing to this person". A wide variety of possible responses and reactions are reported in his book including trembling, laughing and shaking. If a demon manifests the person is taken to a side room and the demon is dealt with. The prayer engagement continues until there is a sense that it is over.

5. Post-Prayer Instructions - Just as Jesus said "Go and sin no more" (John 8:11) and (John 5:14 NKJV) Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." so Wimber exhorts people to holiness and gives them instructions on how to keep their healing or pursue its completion.

(It is next preferably better for the church pastor and the really spiritual elders to do this, to anoint the sick person on the head with oil as well.. I have been in bad churches which had bad elders and they went through a pretentious formality of praying for people to get well, and they next even wrongfully blamed the sick person for not being cured by having a lack of faith or have sin in their life.. what a cop out too.)

People can either come to the front for prayer or just raise their hands where they are and the prayer team moves around praying quietly and confidentially with each one. Individual cases can be taken to a separate side room and dealt there as well or even at the homes.."

I too have found that sometimes we alslo do need to find out by instant prayer  "the real reason" why some people are sick. This is best done by having three persons praying specifcally for the person and  next revealing to the sick person what God has shared with them about the cause of the sickness.

But Jesus "had compassion on them and healed all their sick"  even in all kind of places, privately, publicly, even without long services.. You have to know how God is leading you to do it.

1 John 4:8 God is love.

Psalm 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Psalm 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

Exodus 15:26 I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall

Arise, shine; for thy light is come. . . (Isaiah 60:1)

Why do the  Holy Spirit  gifts endure beyond the days of the early Apostles?
"Scripture teaches that the Holy Ghost was given for the spreading of the Gospel through the methods and power of Jesus. (Acts 1:8) The disciples preached while exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit! Paul confirmed, "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." (2 Corinthians 12:12) Today, we need no less than the primitive church. The needs of our age are equal to those of the first century. (I Cor. 10:18) Scripture never indicated that the gifts of the Spirit would be removed during the age of grace but rather affirmed a wonderful outpouring in these last days. (Acts 2:17-18) Therefore, we must seek God's Pentecostal power to enable Christ-like ministry. Like great men throughout history we must lay hold of God's Pentecostal anointing and thereby reach our lost generation!"  "Remember that God has never changed and has always done the miraculous. On the day of Pentecost, God's power was sent into His eternal temple. (1 Corinthians 3:16) Satan has been trying to destroy God's house ever since. While Jesus is unchanging, Satan continually changes into every disguise to accomplish his deception. We can defeat him with the Word of God and the power of the Holy Ghost.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39)"
Isaiah 44:3 "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:"
Isaiah 59:21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."
Isaiah 28:11-12 "For with stammering lips and another tongue (Acts 2:4) will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." 
Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Acts 2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

Ezekiel 37:10 "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."

Ezekiel 47:
3 ...the waters were to the ankles.
4 ... the waters were to the knees.
5 "Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over."

John 3:34-35 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand."

Matthew 25:2-4 "And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps."

Ephesians 4:6-7 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

It is also  the Holy Spirit, a personal daily Bible devotional  that keeps you "refreshed" and "high" In God and  it is your subsequent believing, faith  that produces God's power, miracles in evidence in your own life too! Not just believing in Angels or in what others say.

I believe in  Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers healings, miracles too but I also do have a need for discernment and wisdom with regard to them as well.

 Also please do note this..

1 Be very wary of anyone who seeks to persuade out of the Bible especially the church of an established or a  "new" definition of any  aspect of biblical teaching, because too many  people are false.

2. Don’t be misled  by any  person’s academic credentials or church position. He may be a professor at a highly esteemed cemetery and even have the support of a numbered of deceased colleagues and supposedly know well his Greek and Hebrew, but if what he says does not fit all of the plain teaching of scripture, we must not be afraid to flatly review or to reject it.

3. The   knowledge of the " Greek and Hebrew", "Jewish literature" or a  knowledge of the "apocryphal books" is not part of the  proper interpretation of scripture. When a writer feels also  the full need to use them to establish or support his position in the word, he may have already substituted the useless chaff for the truth, the wheat.

4. Do also Realize the influence, positively and negatively, that any of our friends and associates, others do  have wrongfully on the moulding of our own  theology. It’s much more difficult to resist false teaching if it comes to us through the lips and keyboard of one whom we personally know and may even appreciate  his or her work in other areas. Not all of false teaching came from people who were harsh, unloving, self-centered snobs, thus we all can still be very  vulnerable to it. And just cause it was on TV, preached in the church, on tape, or in writing does not mean it is the truth still.

5. Consider the best practical source  of determining the personal will of God for each one of us today. Start with the  pure Word of God any day!

6. Lazy people becoming to easily unthinking slaves even to the modern day Preachers, or prophets.  Instead of taking the needed also personal responsibility to make wise decisions based on the principles of God’s Word, they simple wrongfully wait to be told by a "word from the Lord" by one of God's supposed servant. God normally does not lead you through others. He may confirm his truth to you though.

7.  Modern prophecy, has it's place along with good preaching. But much of what goes under good preaching, good Bible exposition, and even good prophecies are false today as well.

8. "Jesus prophesied that not one stone of the temple will be left on another (Luke 21:6). Yet anyone who has seen the wailing wall in Jerusalem will say  that some stones still remain one on another." But yet there seems to be even historical evidence that this was not the original temple foundations stones. So who do you believe Jesus or what mere men now tell you?

9.   Are any of us  so busy with our own agendas, our programs and our too many areas of responsibility that we have firstly neglected "that good part", the sitting at the feet of Jesus and communing with our Lord by His Holy Spirit? Do we even know his Holy Spirit personally yet too?

We often say we do want God to speak to us and our people today. We also do want spiritually alive services. But we personally even as pastors, elders, prophets, apostles do not have yet even a continual relationship  with  God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit or with the Bible even?

(Mat 18:1 KJV)  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7  Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11  For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 


(Mat 23:11 KJV)  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

(Mat 23:12 KJV)  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

(Luke 11:49 KJV)  Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

(Mat 10:2 KJV)  Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

(Mat 11:13 KJV)  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
( Note Jesus the Apostle and the other Apostles expanded, clarified  next  the old testament teachings.. and all of the new testament books were written solely by an Apostle.)

(Mat 23:34 KJV)  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Mat 7:15 KJV)  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

(Mat 24:24 KJV)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If in comparison the   false prophets  and false apostles exist, there must also still exists the genuine ones too..

(Acts 2:42 KJV)  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

(Acts 2:43 KJV)  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

(Acts 4:33 KJV)  And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

(Acts 4:35 KJV)  And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

(Acts 5:12 KJV)  And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

(Acts 8:18 KJV)  And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

(Acts 13:1 KJV)  Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

(Eph 2:20 KJV)  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 3:5 KJV)  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(Eph 4:11 KJV)  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I like the scriptures to firstly speak for themselves, on any topic now as well..

For a start we know that in the Church of Christ there were more than just the 12 original apostles.. An Apostle is a calling,  who job description is being the senior father of the church, he is generally the, an original church starter, he is the equivalent today of a Missionary, and he or she  tends to have all, note all of the gifts of the Holy spirit. Apostle are generally characterized by the much persecutions and sufferings they bear too.. One generally tends to work one way up in the church and the last administrative position is the Apostle.. the job below the apostle are the prophets who are often found in the company of apostles, and generally below the prophets are the pastors -teachers who take the advice from the Prophets.. many pastor teachers deny the existence of apostles, prophets cause they are in sin and falsely refuse to submit to their authorities.. Some pastors today actually function in the role of an Apostle, but do not use the title.. and the elders are made up of the local pastors teachers, prophets, apostles.. there are women apostles.. such as Junia (Rom 16:7 KJV)  Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me... and women prophetess (by the way Apostle and prophets can be divorcees.. while pastor teachers cannot..) Evangelists is a separate gifted persons to the church, also one of the elders, generally has a healing or miracles gifts,   tend to travel from church to church, city while missionaries tend to be fixed.. Generally in the local Church the apostle is referred to as an elder.. as are the prophets, pastor teachers, evangelists.. Now as to a ruling elder, the church administrator,  the Bishop...an apostle, he tends to be responsible for a specific flock of churches in the geographical area.. he is the the most senior original apostle or his gifted appointee. God selects and equips the church  leaders, the church confirms it..

(Heb 3:1 KJV)  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

(Mat 21:11 KJV)  And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

(Luke 24:19 KJV)  And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people

(John 6:14 KJV)  Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

Jesus was a Prophet, but was now also the first Apostle of the church, he was the Apostle, the Prophet too...

Examples of the fatherly aspects of an apostle..

(Gal 4:19 KJV)  My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

(1 John 2:1 KJV)  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

(1 John 3:18 KJV)  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

(Mark 10:14 KJV)  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Secondly apostle Paul clearly WAS NOT one OF THE original 12 OR the 13th apostle..

(1 Cor 1:1 KJV)  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God

(1 Cor 9:1 KJV)  Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Have you also noticed that trying to discuss spritual gifts with spiritual  fools tends to end up in fights? why?? Can you next really teach a fool who thinks he or she knows it all anyhting? no!  (Rom 14:1 KJV)  Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. (Prov 9:9 KJV)  Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

The New Testament office of an Apostle supposedly also had no parallel for sure in the Old Testament and I would agree that a more  valid Biblical definition of an "Apostle is a matured Holy Spirit anointed Christian person who has experienced all the gifts of the Holy Spirit... in other words he the Apostle has also personally had functioned in the role of prophet, pastor, teacher, evangelist, miracle worker, healer, giver, helper.. etc., and that was why they have been given such  importance in their roles now too. Mind you that is a general definition, the original 12 Apostles and Apostle Paul do not fully meet this criteria.

EPHESIANS 2:20 still does reminds us that the church of today as well is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone". Note the inclusion of the New Testament prophets with the apostles as the continual. ongoing foundation of the church. "That these prophets are NT prophets cannot be seriously questioned, especially in the light of Eph. 3:5 where the apostles and prophets again are found together as recipients of the revelation of the mystery that the Spirit has "now" made known." And the gift of prophecy to the church was also to be eagerly sought.

(Eph 4:11 KJV)  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Because many they have also wrongfully neglected the continual Greek verse tense here  in the passage, stating thus God keeps on giving these anointed persons, offices, some persons would wrongfully state that there is clear implications there being only one historic  "foundation" and that once a foundation is laid, it does not need to go on being laid thus pointing to a SUPPOSEDLY temporary nature and cessation of the office of Apostle.or Prophet now as well.

The Christian Church foundational, original organization plan,  while truly first set in Pentecost is actually repeated  daily today as well when we now do build any new church work. In any new local church work the apostles, and  the NT prophets are continually raised up by still by God for them to serve in the founding, foundations  of the new church work. Once this task was, is complete, these offices of apostles and prophet's were  still needed even next in the administration and expanding the new church work and even by next also building another one, Now how come some people do not want to see this too? "In Eph. 2:20, apostles and prophets are closely linked. They are both important components of the one foundation.  Ephesians would actually indicate that we are dealing with two groups of specifically gifted people. In Eph. 4:11 we are told that Christ "gave some to be apostles, some prophets..." Here both nouns have their own definite article. They are clearly two separate groups.  Let’s also STILL note the important position accorded to New Testament prophets. In Eph. 4:11 they are mentioned second only to apostles. Their importance is also seen in Rom. 12:6-8, where the first gift mentioned is prophecy. Similarly, 1 Cor. 12:28 lists "first apostles, second prophets, third..." "

(Rev 22:6 KJV)  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

(Rev 22:9 KJV)  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Like I have said one is not a Christian before one notice the vast difference between fundamental Christians, in particularly between the Pentecostals and the non Pentecostals.. the difference lies also in the aspects, emphasis  of the Holy Spirit, Spiritual Gifts, and the gifted Church members, offices too.,, such as even Apostles, Prophets.. and there are differences even on the issue of eternal security.. While both sides claim to believe the Bible is the word of God, they seem to explain it all very differently... the problem to me it seems is that clearly one group is doing it mostly in their own wisdom, not in God's, they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide,  teach them, but rather the flesh, mere men and the devil.. but next each one says the other group is doing this.. the same professing Christian group that has a low emphasis on the Holy Spirit is the one in error.
 
(Mat 10:8 KJV)  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9  Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10  Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11  And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12  And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13  And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15  Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17  But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18  And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19  But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 21  And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24  The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26  Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27  What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. 32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. 40  He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 41  He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42  And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

 (John 3:16 KJV)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

  A house divided against itself cannot stand (Mark 3:25)  applies to  Churches, and our homes, and our marriages too.
 
God Bless you.
 
Please do see also these good sites  
 
 
 
 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/thewalk.htm 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/persecuted.htm
http://pbulow.tripod.com/proph.html 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/pastors.html 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/struct.html  
http://pbulow.tripod.com/prophet.html  
http://pbulow.tripod.com/tradition.html
http://pbulow.tripod.com/voice.html 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/